The following conversation is a transcribed and condensed version of a videoconference between Trevor Paglen in New York and Jacob Appelbaum in Munich. The exchange took place before audiences in both locations and was hosted by the NYC Goethe-Institut this past December as part of their symposium Images of Surveillance: The Politics, Economics, and Aesthetics of Surveillance Societies. It brought together artists, philosophers, writers, activists, and scholars, and opened Sensitive Data, a series of events that the organizers describe as "a long-term project that aims to advance international, interdisciplinary, and theoretical discourse and artistic exploration on and around surveillance and data capitalism."